Tuesday, 30 June 2020

Nation Revisited # 165 July 2020

Friends and Family

In a video posted by the Irish Patriots - www.irishpatriots.com - Michael Walsh, the former leader of British Movement, and Nick Griffin, the former leader of the British National Party, both state that they had nothing to do with Oswald Mosley's Union Movement, but the movements they led could be traced back to the BFs.

The first fascist movement in the UK was the British Fascists (originally the British Fascisti) founded by Miss Rotha Lintorn-Orman in 1923. They spawned William Joyce who was hanged for 'treason' in 1946, Neil Francis Hawkins who took the bulk of the BF membership with him when he joined Oswald Mosley's BUF, and Arnold Leese who founded the Imperial Fascist League which influenced the post-war nationalist movements.

Michael Walsh took over British Movement from Colin Jordan, who had supported Jeffrey Hamm's British League of Ex-Servicemen and Women. Jeffrey Hamm took his group into Union Movement in 1948. Colin Jordan joined the League of Empire Loyalists, as did John Bean, John Tyndall and Martin Webster. The LEL was founded by AK Chesterton who had been a leading member of Oswald Mosley's BUF before the war. AKC also founded the National Front in 1967 together with John Bean who had been a member of Union Movement after the war. The NF was taken over by John Tyndall and Martin Webster. Nick Griffin joined it as a young man and later took over John Tyndall's British National Party.

Few nationalists admit it but they are all related politically. Some of them belonged to more than one party and despite warnings from the hierarchy, the same faces were seen at meetings and social gatherings. In his biography of Colin Jordan, 'Twaz a Good Fight', Steven Frost described the crowd at the NSM rally in Trafalgar Square in 1962:

"When Colin Jordan and the main speakers mounted the platform to begin their speeches, there was a crowd in front of them numbering about 2,000 people; some were political opponents, some were members of the press, some were NSM supporters or activists from the BNP or Union Movement who had come along for the excitement and the chance to 'mix it with the Reds', some were the merely curious, attracted by the controversy surrounding the event." 

John Bean in his political memoir 'Many Shades of Black' recalls an anti-apartheid rally held in Trafalgar Square in 1961. I remember it well because I was there as a sixteen-year-old Empire Loyalist:

"The biggest meeting was in Trafalgar Square on Sunday February 28th, with the BNP not yet a week old. BNP members turned up with posters and leaflets proclaiming 'Stand by White South Africa', whilst a BNP loudspeaker van toured round the square with a similar message. Also in attendance were many Mosley supporters and Sir Oswald in person, with Bill Webster from St Pancras North standing by his side."

The main ideological difference was between Union Movement which favoured European unity and the nationalists who dreamed of reviving the British Empire. But we all supported South Africa and were opposed to the Money Power and non-European immigration. 

Oswald Mosley does not mention meetings with nationalists in his biography, 'My Life',
but they were reported by John Bean in 'Many Shades of Black', John Tyndall in 'Spearhead', Richard Thurlow in 'Fascism in Britain', Graham Macklin in 'Failed Fuhrers', and Martin Walker in 'The National Front'. The World Heritage Encyclopedia published by the Gutenberg Project states:

The NLP gained a few minor results in elections, but was always destined to be a small fringe movement and as a result Bean decided to merge his party with another LEL splinter group, the White Defence League in 1960 to form the British National Party. Bean was made leader of the party upon its foundation. Early in the group's life both Bean and former White Defence League leader Colin Jordan were approached by Oswald Mosley who offered them roles in his Union Movement if they agreed to it subsuming the BNP but both men rejected the offer.

John Tyndall wrote in Spearhead No 147, January 1981:

Our encounter lasted an hour, during which we argued the respective merits of Anglo-Saxon union and the Union of Europe. A devotee of the first, I did battle with perhaps the most formidable advocate of the second. The meeting, which had been arranged by a mutual friend who had hoped we might be able to join forces, was terminated by Mosley abruptly as the hour struck - and rightly, because it was clear that in loyalties we belonged to two different worlds which argument could not bridge. I expect he forgot me quickly after that but I certainly did not forget him. I have long believed that in this advanced crisis in our civilisation we can only be saved by exceptional men, and there was no doubt that Mosley was an exceptional man.

The Monday Club was a Tory pressure group founded in 1961 to oppose Harold Macmillan. When they held a meeting at Westminster Central Hall in 1972 to protest against immigration, one of the speakers was Harold Soref MP who had been a standard bearer at Oswald Mosley's 1934 meeting at Olympia. Gregory Lauder Frost, and Lord Sudeley were founder member of the Monday Club who now run the Traditional Britain Group. When Iain Douglas Smith outlawed the Monday Club some members turned their attention to the National Front. They tried to legitimise themselves by supporting Israel but they made little progress. 'Springfields' posted the following comment on European Outlook:

Labour MP Jo Cox was a member of Labour Friends of Palestine. She was murdered by Thomas Mair who subscribed to ex-National Front member and current Swinton Circle chairman  Alan Harvey's pro-Zionist, pro-Israel, reactionary right wing Tory, pro-UKIP, Springbok Club magazine, and Mair had letters published in Harvey's rag.

British Nationalist movements, as distinct from Scottish, Irish and Welsh, thrive on adversity. Union Movement blossomed in the grim post-war years but struggled when things got better and premier Harold Macmillan was able to boast that we had "never had it so good." The National Front built a mass movement in the Seventies, when immigration had become an issue, but it imploded when Margaret Thatcher came to power promising to do something about it. The British National Party under the leadership of Nick Griffin (1999-2014) exploited the discontent of the white working class; it polled half a million votes in the 2010 election but was destroyed by the right-wing takeover of the Tory Party under Boris Johnson.

Such is the state of things today. We were recovering from the last recession when we were hit by the Coronavirus. We don't know how long it will be before we get back to normal but the national debt is approaching £2 trillion and our economy has contracted by 20%. It's time for another populist party to make its mark, and when it does, it will probably be able to trace its family tree all the way back to the original British Fascists.  


The coronavirus pandemic has sparked a wave of conspiracy theories about man-made viruses produced by the Chinese, the CIA, Mossad etc. The lack of evidence doesn't deter them, instead, they take it as proof of conspiracy. If you point out that the pandemic has effected Chinese, Americans, and Israelis, they will probably say: "that's what they want you to think."

Sufferers from
paranoia hear voices, experience feelings of persecution and believe in bizarre conspiracy theories, such as the idea that shape-shifting lizard people are taking over the world. This mental disorder is most common in middle-aged women but men are also vulnerable. They can be helped but, like alcoholics and drug addicts, they must really want to recover. Unfortunately, most of them do not want to get better and they regard offers of help as part of the plot against them. 

Some of them avoid having their photos taken or refuse to give their names and addresses, telephone numbers, or even their e-mail addresses. Others are reputed to wear tin-foil hats to stop the CIA from reading their minds. They can be recognised by their fanaticism and by the horrified reactions of their listeners who usually make an excuse and leave when they start spouting nonsense. 

I realised the extent of paranoia when I attended a meeting held upstairs in a central London pub. The pub had a security system that included a camera. When an elderly member of the audience noticed it there was a great commotion as people tried to hide their faces or move out of range. The organiser calmed them down by placing a newspaper over the camera. I realise that political activities might endanger people's jobs, but these were mostly pensioners with no jobs to worry about.

Fear of identification and conspiracy theories go hand in hand and get worse with age. I accept that some international financiers are up to no good but I don't believe in shape-shifting lizard people and mind-controlling rays put out by the CIA. Such ideas are simply mad and those promoting them should consult a good Jewish psychiatrist. 

Lord Haw Haw: The Full Story of William Joyce by JA Cole

This is the fifth biography of William Joyce that I have read. Rebecca West wrote 'The Meaning of Treason' in 1948 when it was almost impossible to be objective. Not surprisingly, she produced a spiteful account of her subject. Francis Selwyn did better in 'Hitler's Englishman' in 1987. Mary Kenny wrote the most sympathetic book so far, her 2003 biography of Joyce entitled 'Germany Calling'. And Colin Holmes produced the most scholarly work with 'Searching for Lord Haw-Haw' in 2016. JA Cole's excellent book was first published in 1964 but I have just discovered it. 

Cole adds little to the story of William Joyce but he succeeds in treating his subject as a human being. One of my favourite anecdotes from his book is that William Joyce was sent off during a school Rugby match because the referee said that he did not know which side he was on.

But he had been on the side of the British Empire since his days as a scout for the military in Ireland. And he maintained this contact during his career as a fascist agitator. My friend Bill Barnes (1912-1981) knew Joyce before the war and insisted that he had been set up by MI5 to go to Germany on the understanding that he would not be prosecuted. Barnes also thought that Joyce had kept his mouth shut in court to protect his wife. 

Joyce was hanged because he once held a British passport and was therefore guilty of treason by broadcasting for the enemy during wartime. He was born in New York to an Irish father and naturalised as a German citizen. He never struck a blow against Britain, he only broadcast over the German radio in the hope of ending what he regarded as an unnecessary war. But Britain in the post-war years was not interested in fine points of law.

Since his trial we have had a succession of real spies and traitors; Kim Philby, Guy Burgess, Donald Maclean, John Cairncross, and Anthony Blunt betrayed vital information to the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but none of them faced the hangman's noose.

The only other 'traitor' to be executed was John Amery, the son of Leo Amery the Secretary of State for India. He  broadcast for the Axis powers and recruited British prisoners of war to fight with the Germans on the Russian front. He had been granted Spanish citizenship for his service to the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War but this was not recognised by the court. He was hanged in Wandsworth prison on 19th December 1945. 

Joyce was hanged in Wandsworth Prison on 3rd January 1946. He was buried in the the prison grounds until 1976 when he was re-buried in Galway. His daughter, Mrs Heather Landolo, fought a long campaign to have his remains returned to Ireland where he grew up and first dedicated himself to politics.

William Joyce's grave in Boheremore Cemetary, Galway. Photo credit Robert Lyons.

Fortress Britain

When the present crisis is over it would make sense for us to be more self-reliant; to grow more crops, to produce more cars and domestic appliances, and to train our own workers, but we can't protect ourselves from viral infections by closing our borders. We may be an island but we are connected to the rest of the world. In 2018 we welcomed 37.9 million visitors who spent £22.9 billion. Many of us take our holidays abroad, we import half of our food and fuel and we have friends, relations, and business contacts all over the world who we need to visit.

The UK has announced a two week quarantine period for overseas visitors. This will help to control the coronavirus pandemic but it will kill tourism in this country together with hotels, theatres, restaurants, and bars. This would have been more effective if it had been done much earlier but thousands of people have already arrived here from infected countries. We are shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

The World Health Organisation points out that if every country eradicated the virus except one, it wouldn't take long for that country to re-infect the rest of the world. This pandemic is a global problem that requires a global approach. The petty nationalism of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson may be popular with readers of 'The Daily Mail' but it will not protect us. They hate the World Health Organisation because it's international and run by 'unelected foreigners', but it has eradicated the scourge of Smallpox. Together we conquered Smallpox and together we can conquer Coronavirus.

The Jews and the Holocaust

I have received several e-mails from readers regarding the Jews and the Holocaust. They have pointed me to websites ranging from serious revisionist history to outright anti-Semitism. Some of them are interesting but I don't intend to focus on the Jews in general or the Holocaust in particular. 

The Jews are prominent in several industries including show business. They own many newspapers and TV stations, and, naturally, they support Israel. But they are not inherently evil; there are good and bad Jews, just as there are good and bad Gentiles.

he Holocaust happened 75 years ago and there's nothing that we can do about it now. To quote Jean-Marie Le Pen, it has become "a detail of history." There's no point in debating the exact number of victims, or endangering one's liberty by provoking the Law.

Anti-Semitism is unjust but criticism of Zionism is perfectly justified. The Israeli occupation of Palestine is inhuman and in contravention of UN Resolution 242, but eventually the American taxpayers will wake up and Israel-Palestine will become a single democratic state.

Eddy Morrison RIP

The Leeds-based
poet and patriot Eddy Morrison died on Wednesday 10th June, aged 70. His lifelong fight for Race and Nation was recorded in his biography 'Memoirs of a Street Soldier'. He will be sadly missed by all his friends. Read his obituary in 'Heritage and Destiny'.

Reciprocal Websites

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Nation Revisited

This blog seeks reform by legal means. All articles are by Bill Baillie unless otherwise stated. The opinions of guest writers are entirely their own. We uphold the UN Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19:

"We all have the right to make up our own minds, to think what we like, to say what we think, and to share ideas with other people."

European Outlook 

Our sister blog is posted on - https.europeanoutlook.blogspot.com 


se the facility at the end of this blog to leave your comments and read what others have to say. But please don't post ad hominem attacks, we are interested in ideas not personalities.

Sunday, 31 May 2020

Nation Revisited # 164 June 2020

Ted Budden's article 'A United Front For Europe' appraised by Ian Freeman

I am coming to agree with this, even if public opinion has shifted since the late and much missed Ted wrote it.

Brexit was for us British Nationalists, a means to an end: recreating Joseph Chamberlain's dream of Imperial Federation, essentially - a union of the White Dominions and Britain, including ideally eventually the US. That was easily doable in 1895, entirely possible in 1935, and just about possible as late as 1970.

Hence what became the NF disagreed with Mosley on this issue, I think at the time an NF Government - in hindsight a vision with Tyndall riding to No 10 on unicorn back whilst squadrons of winged porkers  flew past in salute - could perhaps still have achieved it as late as 1980. Party politics was predicated, as must be, on the assumption the party will be in power to implement it. So I think we were right then to disagree with Sir Oswald. However, the Greater Britain train has now long left the station, and we want, to use a cliche, to be the first of tomorrow, not the last of yesterday. Whether or not Mosley was right in 1948, in today's situation I suspect he would be right now.

There are many reasons to embrace a European future in 2020 if not 1950. Nationalism, moribund here, is rising in Europe. Much of Europe, notably in the East, is Whiter than much of the old White Commonwealth, which seems basically moribund to me. Europe needs to stand together against the hordes now pressing in on us from East and South.

In the post Covid-19 world, globalisation will need to be replaced with regional autarkic blocs, with movement of individuals  and eventually goods between them made as difficult as possible. No more Chinese tourists! Bojo's "Global Britain" is dead in the water now.

Britain is too small and too crowded to stand alone. We cannot feed ourselves. In theory, we could solve this by wielding the British sword to seize land for the British plough in what is now the Irish Republic - the British Isles as a whole could achieve self-sufficiency in food. However, I am not prepared to countenance White nations preying on their brother Whites in this way - Hitler was wrong (morally and, since it largely caused him to lose his war, practically) to try it in Russia and I do not want my Irish relatives ethnically cleansed or enslaved, thank you.

Europe, eventually including Russia, is a potential autarkic unit (as is Australia, North America, and Greater China - everywhere else in in trouble, I fear). Britain alone is not. The logic to me is inescapable. I feel more akin personally to Anglo-Australians, Kiwis and Canadians, but nonetheless we, and they, are culturally and racially Europeans, and we are geographically too.

I think that Europe therefore is where our destiny lies, but am open to persuasion otherwise. Thoughts?

Happy Birthday John Bean

Congratulations to my old friend John Bean who will be 93-years-old on June 7th. John was born in Carshalton, Surrey in 1927. He did his national service in the Royal Navy, worked briefly in India, and studied chemistry at the Borough Polytechnic, now the University of the South Bank. In 1974 he left London with his wife and children, his technical knowledge, and his trusty typewriter for the wilds of West Suffolk, where he spent the next 47 years earning a living. He has now retired to North Yorkshire, to be with his extended family.

In 1995 he wrote 'Ten Miles From Anywhere' which told the story of his adopted village from 1969 to 1994. For 18 of those years he was editor of the parish magazine 'The Wickhambrook Scene'. This fascinating book which really captures the rural remoteness of the area is available from Amazon.

He is better known for his 1999 political memoir 'Many Shades of Black'. An entertaining account of his career as a street corner orator, including getting 3,410 votes (9.1%) in the 1964 Southall general election. At the time it was the best election result ever achieved by a 'patriotic' candidate, and I am proud to have been part of it. 'Many Shades of Black' has become a standard reference book despite JB's occasional lapses into journalistic licence.

In recent years he wrote two historical novels; 'Blood in the Square' and 'The Trail of the Viking Finger'. They got mixed reviews, but to my mind they were not as good as his documentary works.

In 2012 I collaborated with John Bean and Arthur Kemp on the publication of 'Meaning of an Enemy' by Andrew Fountaine (1918-1997). This critical evaluation of Winston Churchill is available from: ostarapublications.com

Until recently JB's 'Nationalist Notebook' was a regular feature on the British Democratic Party website. He started writing politically in 1955 with an article in 'Nationalist Unity' warning of the dangers of uncontrolled immigration: 

With the possible exception of the harnessing of nuclear energy for weapons of war, the political awakening of the Coloured races of Africa and Asia is transcending all other socio-political problems of this age. Accompanying this awakening, is the gradual infiltration of Europe - Britain and France in particular - by Coloured peoples.

Should Western opinion continue to face this problem with the old concept of 'equality of man', it will not be long before Europe as a racial entity ceases to exist, and with it the highly-developed civilisation that Europe has given the world.

Here in Britain we are made daily aware of the increasing resistance that this Coloured influx is meeting, whether it be from busmen or hospital workers who are striking because they fear that the standards their Trade Unions have obtained for them will be undermined by Coloured labour, or from hotel landlords who reserve rooms for White customers only - as the writer has seen done in reverse in hotels and clubs in India.

Whilst this paper opposes the belief that all men are equal, we do not on the other hand contend that biologically any one race is superior to another. The fact is we are all different.

If we are to conserve our country as a European nation, all further Coloured immigration - except for genuine students - must be halted now before its too late. There is little point in creating a race problem where one does not exist.

The Alternative

Since the collapse  of the Soviet Union the Russian Federation has adopted a free market economy, and China has embraced capitalism with enthusiasm. The United States is a superpower with enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet, and Europe and Japan are its faithful allies.

The global economy was recovering from the financial disaster of 2008 when the banks sold each other so many worthless mortgages that they ran out of money. Stricter banking regulations and fiscal policies resulted in steady growth and stability. But this has been shattered by a coronavirus pandemic that has killed thousands of people and wrecked the global economy. Governments all over the world are spending billions of dollars in rescue operations, but every penny will have to be paid back by the taxpayers. Our world has been turned upside down and we can only hope that it soon gets back to normal.

The global capitalist system will take a battering but it will survive. Human nature never changes; the love of money is the root of all evil and until we adopt an equitable political system, the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. But if we move towards a self-sufficient geopolitical system, as first proposed by Oswald Mosley in 'The Alternative' in 1948, we can avoid the worst excesses of capitalism. Mosley envisaged a new order arising from the ruins of the Second World War. Our situation today is almost as grave as it was then, but we have the expertise and the resources to build a better world; all we lack is the will to do it.

'The Alternative' is available from oswaldmosley.com 

Red Terror and The Communist Technique in Britain

Robert Best's booklet 'Red Terror' charts the bloody history of the Soviet Union from the Bolshevik Revolution to the Second World War. We must never forget the atrocities committed by Joseph Stalin in this time of revolution and war, but his speech to the Communist Party Congress in 1929 explains his motivation. He was convinced that Germany would attack the Soviet Union and he was determined to be ready for them: 

"We are 50-100 years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it or they crush us."

To achieve his objective he crushed liberty and condemned thousands to death, but his brutality had nothing to do with Karl Marx who was a middle-class German journalist who never killed anyone. Stalin modernized the Soviet Union, defeated Nazi Germany, conquered half of Europe, and began the program that put the first man into space.

part from Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin, most of the Bolshevik leaders were Jews, but instead of sticking together they turned on each other. Best records that:

"Trotsky was assassinated in Mexico on the orders of Stalin, Zinoviev was executed by Yagoda, Yagoda was purged by Beria."

 'Red Terror' is available from Steven Books.

'The Communist Technique in Britain' by Bob Darke was published in 1952 at the height of the Cold War. He was an East London bus conductor and an active member of the Communist Party who became a Hackney councillor. He describes the strategy of the Party in the 1940s which used the trade union movement to further its aims. Darke never departed from his socialist convictions but he despaired of the devious tricks of his comrades, who would do almost anything for the Cause. Today, the Communist Party has been replaced by several ineffectual left-wing parties but in 1952 it was force to be reckoned with. Bob Darke explained why he wrote the book:

"I have not written this book because I wish to raise the pile of ex-Communist literature by another inch or two. I have written it in an attempt to get home to my fellow trade unionists the extent to which their interests and their rights are being shamelessly betrayed by the Communist Party.

No country in the world has a greater right to be proud of its working class and trade union history than has Britain. We have built up a movement which is based on man's right to be heard and represented in whatever way he chooses, a movement which is based on man's fundamental belief in the decency of his neighbour.

Communism will replace this with a society based on man's fundamental fear of his neighbour.

Freedom of conscience and will is an inheritance we take too lightly, even after the Nazi war. We are in danger of having it taken away from us as much by the extreme anti-Communists as by the Communists themselves."  

'The Communist Technique in Britain' is available from Amazon.

Jeffrey Hamm Speech to Colin Jordan's Birmingham Nationalist Club - from 'Union' January 1951

(The divide between British nationalism and European unity dates back to the immediate postwar years. Jeffrey Hamm knew Colin Jordan from his British League of Ex-Servicemen and Women which was one of the groups that formed Union Movement).

On the evening of Wednesday 17th January, members of the Birmingham Nationalist Club were addressed by Jeffrey Hamm of Union Movement (with the club's organiser Mr JCC Jordan in the chair).

Hamm opened his address by suggesting that although members of the club might not be prepared to accept European Union as the alternative to internationalism, they would at least agree with him in his condemnation of the international system. He proceeded to recall the widespread unemployment which had been caused in pre-war Britain by the activities of International Finance, which had been free to exploit the East and to flood Britain with produce of Oriental sweated labour. The natural reaction to this had been the emergence of the nationalist movement of British Union, which under the leadership of Oswald Mosley had advocated the development of Britain and of the British Empire as a self-contained unit.

Anti-European Nationalism Obsolete

In foreign policy, the speaker continued, the internationalists had disarmed Britain dangerously and then dragged our country and our people into a war which was not in our interests. British Union had advanced the nationalist policy of making Britain strong enough to defend herself against any country in the world and had advocated withdrawal from European entanglements in order to concentrate on the development of Britain and the British Empire.

Today, the speaker suggested, anti-European nationalism was obsolete. No longer could "the former British Empire" be economically independent while, in the age of the rocket and the atom bomb, we could not shut our eyes to the danger of Europe being overrun by Communism from the East. We should, therefore advance beyond our pre-war nationalism to the new idea of "Europe a Nation".

Hamm said he sympathised with the nationalists in the desire to see an independent Britain arise again, but if they were realists they would agree that she could not do so as an isolated unit. The world today is dominated by the two forces of American Capitalism and Soviet Communism. It was, therefore, necessary, if we were to regain our independence, for us to create a "Third Force". That force was Europe, united as one nation in a common faith and idea.

Europe united could save the peace and win back the lands seized by the Soviet Union. Then, by turning to Africa, we could win our own foodstuffs and raw materials and thus regain our economic independence.

The speaker dealt with a number of questions covering many aspects of Union Movement policy, and it is hoped that as a result of this meeting several of the Birmingham Nationalists Club will have advanced beyond their nationalism to the new conception of "Europe a Nation".

Bernard Franklyn writes:

The educational system and virtually everything else was messed up with the 1960's cultural revolution. I had a first class A stream Secondary Modern Education leaving school in the Summer of 1958. Two years later the school was closed. The massive well equipped science lab was removed along with well equipped large metalwork and woodwork shop. Fabians, Zionists and Freemasons had taken control of teacher training. A new breed of delinquent Marxists, do as you like teacher were ready to send into schools, with the result that the first class old teachers left in disgust.

Since then we have regularly seen in newspaper reports of our children leaving school barely able to read, write or do simple mathematics. Parliament will not do anything about it as it changed education to suit their nation-wrecking programme. Just as they refuse to listen when we complain about fluoride being added to the water supply when it causes a reduction in the thinking ability and causes cancer. To find out more go to my website - theflameuk.com


se the facility at the end of this blog to leave comments and read what other have to say. But please don't post ad hominem attacks, we are interested in ideas not personalities.

Nation Revisited

This blog seeks reform by legal means. All articles are by Bill Baillie unless otherwise stated. The opinions of guest writers are entirely their own. We uphold the United Nations' Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19:

"We all have the right to make up our own minds, to think what we like, to say what we think, and to share our ideas with other people."